Curse

Mouse at Large · Feb 18, 2011, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Imo, the time spent on the "intensity" rework was wasted and could have been better allocated to something actually usefull.

I don't think you can do something particularly useful in under 5 minutes......

Essence Snow · Feb 18, 2011, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

What? You think my version was still underpowered?

Sry..I missed the wording...next "spell"...I was thinking you meant just adding 3-5secs of cr to it's current version.

The way you suggested...is actually OP, imo now that I understand it correctly.

AndrewSX · Feb 18, 2011, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Agree. But the real problem is that any real eles rework would take an effort similar to the derv's one, and i'm not confident that it would happen before GW2 release. And anyway, only a Intesity change can't really resolve eles problems.

Summing up some ideas in this thread:
1)Change Energy storage: a large energy pool doesn't mean energy management. Idea:Give it this function.
2)Change Attunements: they're the real(and poor..) e-management of an ele, but they're very vulnerable for cast(2 sec) and last/recharge(around 1 min/45 sec) and obviously are strippable. A neutralized attunement(interruption/strip) is a usless ele for 45 sec. Idea:giving ES the e-management role, attunements can be turned in buffs of any kind(APenetration, damage, cast/rechrgee, ect), without them at least an ele isn't totally lost.
Doing so, as suggested before, add the clause:

Quote:

You don't have any benefit from this enchantement if you cast an ele's skill on a foe of your same level or lower.

for do not screw the pvp or give even more insane buff to HM mobs.
3)Wards: pretty useless apart defensive circumstances, quite rarely so. Idea:Make them move with caster.
4)Glyphs: simply ricoulous as they are now. Idea:...no idea atm.

5)PBAOE: simply unusable in general pve, requires meele range, wich is deadly for a caster in HM. Idea: make them at least target allies, like Ancestor's rage(still, we would have 10+ skill with same functionality).
-Plus, there's a need of an overall rework of skills, because some of them have really no use. PvE eles skills are quite meh(yes, even the "less then a day old" intensity). Water magic is good for snares, but for everythig else...meh. Half of Earth magic is to prot yourself, good only for farming/tanking. Air is too much single target, and rarely you'll be really able to spike somethig only with it. Fire...is Aoe. Mostly adiacent. And cause massive scatter. Nothing else to say.

Now i'll go to play my derv and mez(real nuker).

Xiaquin · Feb 18, 2011, 05:38 PM // 17:38

As the profession I learned the game on, I'm disappointed. The new Intensity seems unnecessary since the low-powered single-target spells it's intended to help are just that, too weak to care about adding AoE anyway. I guess they really wanted to get rid of flat damage buffs, but the upkeep and damage returns are just sad.

I wonder if it could work something like Fingers of Chaos, to single out professions with various effects, rather than just be a band-aid via cracked armor or AP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Rangers will always be pretty well off as long as Barrage exists and can be comboed with things like splinter weapon/EBSoH/OoP/GDW. They can even run SY to replace an imbagon in the party while doing it. EoE also is pretty effective. So they have a niche and can actually function well in a group.

Agreed for the most part, but Barrage isn't effective everywhere. Single target can't be ignored, which is partly the error with the new Intensity.

Swingline · Feb 18, 2011, 05:53 PM // 17:53

I like the idea of making ES the eles e management and the attunements should boost the damage of the ele.

ES: You have +3 maximum energy and gain +2% energy when you cast an elemental spell per rank of ES.

Fire Attunement: For XX Seconds your fire spells deal +15% damage and +1% per rank in Fire Magic.

The other Attunements would be just like fire attunement except they would be to the proper element.

HigherMinion · Feb 18, 2011, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

Well, AP isn't there to recharge ele's spell, but PvE skills, mostly EVAS and Norn shouts. Shouts->EVAS->AP and lot of times the mob is dead before cast a 2 sec spell. Then repeat.

And about ER, please don't call it a "Elementalist bar". Minimun 6 skills are from monk prof or pve. It's good, but it's a huge nonsense.

As i said in another thread:

It's not a nonsense? Anything with a better energy pool than monks will perform just as well. Ritualists, Paragon and Dervish can all heal as well as the monk. Why not the ele? They have always had ways of scraping together energy for any spells, rather than just elements. Prism, Mind Blast, ER. Soul Reaping and now dervs are going to be stronger power healers than ERs and monks...

Kunder · Feb 18, 2011, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Sry..I missed the wording...next "spell"...I was thinking you meant just adding 3-5secs of cr to it's current version.

The way you suggested...is actually OP, imo now that I understand it correctly.

If anything cracked armor is more important then the rest of the skill. Cracked armor is +41% damage to everything armor respecting, including ally attacks. Being able to activate only 1 time per second doesn't even matter outside of pulsating AoEs, eles can only cast their big spells once every 3-4s or so anyway. Perhaps it should go up to a 2s between activation, so that DwG doesn't get too overpowered (though it would be better to nerf DwG instead).

Essence Snow · Feb 18, 2011, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

If anything cracked armor is more important then the rest of the skill. Cracked armor is +41% damage to everything armor respecting, including ally attacks. Being able to activate only 1 time per second doesn't even matter outside of pulsating AoEs, eles can only cast their big spells once every 3-4s or so anyway. Perhaps it should go up to a 2s between activation, so that DwG doesn't get too overpowered (though it would be better to nerf DwG instead).

They way u suggested..at least how I took it...the dmg from intensity would be mutiplied per pulse...

Let's take SH for example.....the 1st pulse would add +xx aoe dmg and cracked armor. The second pulse would hit for xx dmg(at lower al, b/c of cracked) + the xx aoe dmg(which is now greater due to cracked al and the nature of the skill). So by the last pulse the dmg would become quite significant.

Kunder · Feb 18, 2011, 07:32 PM // 19:32

If you had a 100 damage spell against a 100 armor enemy, you would do 50 damage without intensity, and 70 damage +35 AoE with intensity.

AndrewSX · Feb 19, 2011, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

It's not a nonsense? Anything with a better energy pool than monks will perform just as well. Ritualists, Paragon and Dervish can all heal as well as the monk. Why not the ele? They have always had ways of scraping together energy for any spells, rather than just elements. Prism, Mind Blast, ER. Soul Reaping and now dervs are going to be stronger power healers than ERs and monks...

It's a nonsense IMO because it's everything left to eles: something that they shouldn't even do. I mean, ele's skills are almost ALL (except less than 10 under ES, water and few others) damage-oriented. If eles could be the ultimate caster damage dealer, i'd have no problem to say "Hey, huge energy with ER = huge prots. Let's abuse it!" when you get bored to blow up stuff.
But damage is crappy, and this mean that 80%+ of eles skills are crappy, 'cause their aim is purely damage, and the entire profession is crappy. And then we have that to be really effective in HM eles are forced to use AP(and when you have to face heavy hex removal/prot from enemy monks is really meh) or to rely on ER to prot/heal.
THIS is the nonsense: there's no choice, AP or ER or you'll be simply a unnecessary member of a team.
You can heal as resto Necro or Rit: but both have loads of ways to be useful, expecially in damage(rits have also ST, for protting). Even mesmers and monks outdamage eles. This is why when you lok around, you'll see most of ele go -/Rt(for sos), -/A(for AP) or -/Mo(as ER). And the first category is the most populated by far.

P.S:Also, i guess that ER can be the only real user of some Protection prayers skills, with 10/15 ene cost and 1 to 5 sec recharge. Infinite energy = spam, but i'd prefer spam damage, not prots.

Kaleban · Feb 19, 2011, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Best solution to buff Eles in HM is to nerf monster armor.

That way, you don't have to crazy buff Ele damage and do multiple skill splits.

Simply send an intern to tweak spreadsheets lol.

Maybe give all HM monsters -40 (or more) armor vs. a single element, so that Elelmentalists have to tailor their bars to be effective in certain areas.

jazilla · Feb 19, 2011, 07:47 PM // 19:47

The only skill I noticed that gained a nice boon from Intensity is Invoke Lightning. The Earth line is rendered useless because of a complete lack of single targeted spells that do enough elemental damage to be useful in conjunction with this skill(doesn't work with Obby Flame as it isn't elemental damage). This skill also doesn't work with Energy Blast. The other skills that benefit from it don't do enough damage to warrant using a skill slot on a bar to make this useful.

UnChosen · Feb 20, 2011, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Best solution to buff Eles in HM is to nerf monster armor.

That way, you don't have to crazy buff Ele damage and do multiple skill splits.

Simply send an intern to tweak spreadsheets lol.

Maybe give all HM monsters -40 (or more) armor vs. a single element, so that Elelmentalists have to tailor their bars to be effective in certain areas.

Exactly. I'm actually NOT in favour of tweaking Intensity / Elemental Lord / other enchantments to make them "buff" eles because one of the biggest reasons I find eles underwhelming is that they have to cast a ridiculous amount of "prep" skills.

In many occasions I've had my attunements, cover enchant, and elemental lord all run out just as my group is charging into the next group. So I spent like 4 seconds casting Attunement -> Elemental Lord -> Cover Enchant -> Glyph of Lesser Energy or Elemental Power....and by the time I finished all the lower armored mobs are dead and I'm left with nuking 100+ armor warrior class mobs for ~50 damage >.>

Just Sai · Feb 20, 2011, 03:23 AM // 03:23

buff the mindset
trying to lead a pve group with a backline class cant end well
delete all the cliche meta pvx builds and try something totally fresh
they make great hexers

UnChosen · Feb 20, 2011, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Sai

buff the mindset
trying to lead a pve group with a backline class cant end well
delete all the cliche meta pvx builds and try something totally fresh
they make great hexers

I can't tell if you're joking or not. Great hexers? It would be more believable if you say eles are great healers or great tankers.

Just Sai · Feb 20, 2011, 03:43 AM // 03:43

why?
because thats what everybody else says?
stale and stagnant imo

half a bar can spike freeze slow burn blind and kd with 4 slots to spare

UnChosen · Feb 20, 2011, 04:03 AM // 04:03

And I would need Spike, KD, Blind, Burning, or Snare why? Melee with their 100+ DPS >>>>>>>>>> Spike. And I couldn't careless if mobs are KD, Blind, or Snared when they're hitting my minions and killing themselves with Death Nova in the process.

HigherMinion · Feb 20, 2011, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

It's a nonsense IMO because it's everything left to eles: something that they shouldn't even do. I mean, ele's skills are almost ALL (except less than 10 under ES, water and few others) damage-oriented. If eles could be the ultimate caster damage dealer, i'd have no problem to say "Hey, huge energy with ER = huge prots. Let's abuse it!" when you get bored to blow up stuff.
But damage is crappy, and this mean that 80%+ of eles skills are crappy, 'cause their aim is purely damage, and the entire profession is crappy. And then we have that to be really effective in HM eles are forced to use AP(and when you have to face heavy hex removal/prot from enemy monks is really meh) or to rely on ER to prot/heal.
THIS is the nonsense: there's no choice, AP or ER or you'll be simply a unnecessary member of a team.
You can heal as resto Necro or Rit: but both have loads of ways to be useful, expecially in damage(rits have also ST, for protting). Even mesmers and monks outdamage eles. This is why when you lok around, you'll see most of ele go -/Rt(for sos), -/A(for AP) or -/Mo(as ER). And the first category is the most populated by far.

P.S:Also, i guess that ER can be the only real user of some Protection prayers skills, with 10/15 ene cost and 1 to 5 sec recharge. Infinite energy = spam, but i'd prefer spam damage, not prots.

PvP eles are for damage, Hard Mode eles are for support (in PUGs).
And you're very wrong about the support skills. Apart from all the water snares and Maelstrom rupts and Rust... You have Wards in Earth line; Eruption, blind spam; Churning Earth, etc. These are all much better abused with better energy management with an instant recharge(i.e. Assassin's Promise) compared to any other elementalist elite, even a supportive one.

Anet will cry if they have to destroy their model of professions because too many nukers cry about not being able to nuke for 1337 damage. I know loads of people ingame who still use SF because they're bad at change/abusing mechanics.

Running ER prot is completely different to running a monk. One conserves energy until it's needed, the other is forced to spam ten times a second to maintain energy. However, it is an amazing option for eles, but it's a shame you all have your nuking hats on still.

If you WANT to see big damage, run a 100b warrior with mark of pain. Alternatively, a mesmer deals more damage AoE now.

AndrewSX · Feb 20, 2011, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

PvP eles are for damage, Hard Mode eles are for support (in PUGs).

Agree about PvP role of eles...thank to the little armor (compared to HM mobs eh) they are indeed the Damage dealers. This is sure, and i've never said there's a problem in pvp.

Quote:

And you're very wrong about the support skills.

Well, as you said, that's water...umh, snares(mostly deep freeze) and maelstrom, that's all. And about wards, they're effective, rigth but have 2 huge problems now: requires that your party clump toghether in the ward(and in HM pve this means that the first AoE will wipe lol) and they're static, wich means that or you're playing in defence(very rare) or you're pulling apart mob by mob (very long and boring way to play); in other words, with tons of substitutes(ST, imba,....ok also ER) wards are't really appetible to play.

Quote:

Alternatively, a mesmer deals more damage AoE now.

Congrats, you've finally seen the problem.

But i'd say "mez, rits, necs, monks..."

UnChosen · Feb 20, 2011, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

PvP eles are for damage, Hard Mode eles are for support (in PUGs).
And you're very wrong about the support skills. Apart from all the water snares and Maelstrom rupts and Rust... You have Wards in Earth line; Eruption, blind spam; Churning Earth, etc. These are all much better abused with better energy management with an instant recharge(i.e. Assassin's Promise) compared to any other elementalist elite, even a supportive one.

Anet will cry if they have to destroy their model of professions because too many nukers cry about not being able to nuke for 1337 damage. I know loads of people ingame who still use SF because they're bad at change/abusing mechanics.

Running ER prot is completely different to running a monk. One conserves energy until it's needed, the other is forced to spam ten times a second to maintain energy. However, it is an amazing option for eles, but it's a shame you all have your nuking hats on still.

If you WANT to see big damage, run a 100b warrior with mark of pain. Alternatively, a mesmer deals more damage AoE now.

The problem is that all of their support are unneeded or unwieldy in PvE. I would appreciate wards of they're larger (in PvE) and follows the players around. That way you won't have people doing group hugs in a ward begging to be Meteor Showered (monster MS actually works).

Maestrome shouldn't be 2 second cast + Exhaustion + 30s cooldown. It should be 0.25s cast, no exhaustion, 15s cooldown and reduced damage. Then it'll actually work as an interrupt...make it into an ultra expensive "panic" that doesn't always hit and would scatter enemies.

Same with Eruption, it should have a very short cast time so that the ele could instantly blind a mob before they start hitting your team or scattering out of range.

Churning Earth either need to have its effect extended (so that you can actually cast another DoTAoE after that) or it should have very fast cast time so that you can use it as a "snare" after you cast something like meteor shower. They should do the same thing with every other water snare. Then Eles could do meteor shower -> 0.25s cast Deep Freeze snare to lock down mobs.

If its something like that then I could understand having the ridiculous armor....but its not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

PvP eles are for damage, Hard Mode eles are for support (in PUGs).

Not exactly. GvG and RA eles are for support, FA/JQ/AB eles are for CAPPING, and HA eles are for damage. FA/JQ/AB eles do utter crap damage, its just the mechanics caters to them doing short burst of AoE and then running off to another shrine or dying and resing with full energy to cast their expensive spells again.